Loading

High Strength Print Bed for 618 Nylon

by Taulman, published

High Strength Print Bed for 618 Nylon by Taulman Jan 21, 2013

Description

A similar test object to one provided by ttsalo to measure warpage of a specific material, in this case, 618 Nylon.

Recent Comments

view all
Using slic3r? There is speed setting for "small perimeters" I haven't messed with it much but I think it may do just what you want.
So quick question. The garolite has been super for adhesion. But how have folks been cleaning residue off? Also I had one piece stuck so well that it took some of the surface with it.

What is a good substance to clean with?

I am printing on a Prusa I3 at 240c with the bed at 30C. 0.3mm first layer/0.1mm other layers.
Ii have been using the garolite le and its been hit or miss. i'll do one print and the parts are bonded so well they are extremely hard to get off then ill run the same gcode again and it curls right off the bed. i tried sanding the garolite and that made adhesion worse. what i did and am having great results with now is i glassbeaded the surface of the garolite. it removes the top resin leaving the pores in the cloth. just run your first layer tight so i pushes the nylon into the pores on the surface. run the nozzle a little hotter 1st layer and i heat the bed to 70deg for layer 1 only then shut it off. the idea is to get the nylon worked into the surface really well so you have mechanical adhesion. so far the adhesion has been very consistant. you can get the parts off fairly easily with a razor scraper and not break anything.

More from 3D Printing Tests

view more

Makes

Liked By

view all
me

Give a Shout Out

If you print this Thing and display it in public proudly give attribution by printing and displaying this tag. Print Thing Tag

Instructions

As Nylon is the base material of 618 Co-Polmer it is extremely slippery and being slippery is one of 618's benificail properties. However, this slippery property makes bonding of the first print layer to the print bed difficult with standard methods used by printers of ABS.
The Nylon base will stick extremely well to any cellulous material. Garolite LE is a low cost board material (Sometimes called a "Composite") that is manufactured by soaking a combination of cloth and cellulous fibers in a heat curable resin, then compressing the laminations as heat is added. The result is an extremely stong board like material with a smooth surface. With an increasing number of Industrial users along with Universities and machine shops wanting to print 618 with accurate dimentional and surface flatness qualities, a series of tests were divised using the attached .stl.
As the amount of material printed increases, the applied thermal stress increases on layers below. While other materials did well with prints that had limited first layer surface area, only the Garolite LE performed to the requirments of these organizations. In testing, the Garolite performed to the point of needing to have some of the surface area taped off to "limit" contact with 618 as early parts had to be removed destructivly.
As noted in the attached photo, over 50% of the contact area is taped off from the Garolite to accomodate part removal.

The part is 150mm long, 90 degree wedge, 10mm wide at the top and 2mm wide at the contact surface.
The photo shows a part printed:
88mm/s
245C
.4mm nozzle
35% fill
2 perimeters
1 solid layer

After one hour of cooling, there was less than one thread separation at the the extreme ends and then only one end.
The test part was allowed to normalize for 2 hours and then bowing along the long axis was measured at less than .2mm

Garolite LE Source = McMaster Carr
mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3609/=l4hmv3
12" x 12" =
8474K121
8474K131
8474K141
8474K151
6" x 6" =
6842K61
6842K62
6842K63



Reference was thingiverse.com/thing:26955
So quick question. The garolite has been super for adhesion. But how have folks been cleaning residue off? Also I had one piece stuck so well that it took some of the surface with it.

What is a good substance to clean with?

I am printing on a Prusa I3 at 240c with the bed at 30C. 0.3mm first layer/0.1mm other layers.
Ii have been using the garolite le and its been hit or miss. i'll do one print and the parts are bonded so well they are extremely hard to get off then ill run the same gcode again and it curls right off the bed. i tried sanding the garolite and that made adhesion worse. what i did and am having great results with now is i glassbeaded the surface of the garolite. it removes the top resin leaving the pores in the cloth. just run your first layer tight so i pushes the nylon into the pores on the surface. run the nozzle a little hotter 1st layer and i heat the bed to 70deg for layer 1 only then shut it off. the idea is to get the nylon worked into the surface really well so you have mechanical adhesion. so far the adhesion has been very consistant. you can get the parts off fairly easily with a razor scraper and not break anything.
I've been using the Garolite Hard and Strong (XX) from Mcmaster-Carr with great success and no heated bed. It was the cheapest version of Garolite and I figured I would see how well it would stick and so far I haven't had any problems with it. If the part is large and 618 squished down it is hard to get off the sheet but, doesn't take very much Garolite with it once I get it off. I also noticed that increasing the first layer speed as usually I run at 35% speed of my other layers will decrease the sticking effect of the Garolite. So if I run my bottom layer at 50 or 60 percent it won't stick nearly as much as lower numbers. What would be nice is if there was a way to make it slow down at the edges and corners and run faster in the center of large prints. That way I wouldn't require the blue tape hatch pattern to keep the parts from being to hard to get off the build platform. I guess there is probably a way to post process the gcode for the first layer with Perl or something like that but, I'm no good with gcode so... I also used the opaque black version and the part number I used was 85315K114. Hope this helps someone else.
Using slic3r? There is speed setting for "small perimeters" I haven't messed with it much but I think it may do just what you want.
Is your Nylon better printed with or without a cooling fan?

Are you interested in coming out with a black Nylon?
What thickness sheets are you recommending? 1/8 or 1/4?
1/4 costs more, so is it worth the price difference over 1/8?
this nylon is great i use it to make auto parts for race use! no joke! very easy to use easy to setup no stank toxic fumes i love it.
hi guys! i printed a block with 618 with 2 holes in it an i put 6 shells,0 % infill. i replace the infill by the octahedron truncated from thingiverse user ablapo. i test it in the mine i work. i lift approx. 700 pound of steel plate 1 " with it. this is HUGE! for a few gramm of nylon! i gonna post the thing this week.
I just got some 618 a few days ago and I've just finished a write-up of my early results and slic3r settings: elegantalmosteverywhere.com/2013/04/3d-printing-nylon.html
drodgers, Thank you for an excellent write-up on your experience with 618. You'll be glad to know you're in excellent company as there are others working to increase the effectiveness of printing in 618 and 645 all over the world. The added strength is so good, that there are now engineers at local and foreign Universities looking into the dynamics of 618 and 645 through the entire path from spool to part. We fully expect some new extruder/hotend designs to come out later this year to help all of us take advantage of the many added features. Your write-up will be shared with those, so they can learn as much as possible. Again, thank you for your documented work!
taulman
Just wanted to let everyone know there is a thread running over on the Trinitylab-talk Google Group with lots of pictures and research into working with Taulman Nylon 618. This forum doesn't allow posting pictures so I'm not finding it to be a good place to continue discussing on going research into Nylon 618. I did though get a sheet of G-10 and cut out a bit of it for my PrintrBot Jr and got my first print last night.
For those interested, here's a link to said conversation:

groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/trinitylabs-talk/oDITMohdypM
Has anyone tried PAM as a print release agent on the bakelite? I've used spray on PAM on Lexan with PLA and it worked pretty well, especially buttery flavored (to go with the h ot popcorn smell of the PLA.)
I found some thin sheets of bakelite (Garolite, G-10, so many names...) on Amazon and I have one on the way.

amazon.com/dp/B006VYGTOK

I've been getting excellent results with my PrintrBot Jr. using it's native Birch plywood print bed (which is intended to be covered with Blue tape to print PLA).

I got an Eva Dry W500 Saturday and put it right to work on my five pound reserve of Taulman Nylon 618. After 10 hours in a Ziploc Big Bag (Large) the hygrometer I put in the bag indicated a RH of 16%. I pulled out a pound and put it on Jr and tried it out.

Desert dry Nylon 618 had some notable improvements.

No visible steam during printing and no popping except when the hot end ramps up to 245C. I assume that to be moisture absorbed into the left over Nylon 618 as it cooled down in the hot end. I can only get to 41% RH in my 3D studio area.

Significantly less warpage. I was able to reduce the BRIM to 8mm for large area prints from the previous Sombrero BRIM of 16mm I was using with the "wet" Nylon 618.

The printed "dry" Nylon is gorgonzola stretchy where as the "wet" Nylon 618 was less stretchy. The difference in stretchability was quite significant. If you are printing e-fabric I highly recommend drying the Nylon 618 prior to printing it.

I found that 245C reduces warpage as well. Printing at 230C was more warpy than printing at 245C. If you aren't at 245C and are unhappy with how flat your parts are coming out I suggest biting the bullet and going for 245C. Just keep in mind that not all hot ends are safe at 245C as their PTFE liners may begin out gassing toxic break down materials when the PID over shoots 245C.

After observing all the above I now understand that the Taulman Nylon 618 has been arriving here "wet" and I will be drying it upon receipt in the future. The 5g bag of desiccant Taulman puts in each bag is not up to the task of drying out a pound of Nylon 618 during shipping. :-)

My thanks to Taulman for the marvelous product and your excellent customer service in fulfilling your orders!
scotty, first, excellent information on your print efforts with 618. every time we see a post like yours, we find how best 618 is used with different printers and different users. Thanks As for the water content, with feedback, we agree that the 5 grams is not enough (especially in some areas of the world). We've started shipping with 3-4 pouches. We will of course be going through emails to see if the increase in desiccant helps. And thank you for your comments.
I just ordered rolls 7, 8, 9 which will bring me to nine pounds. :-)

Do y'all have a customer loyalty program where you buy 10 get one free? :-)

The Eva Dry I am using on your filament:

amazon.com/gp/product/B000H0XFD2
It's about half a kitty litter boxes worth of silica gel in there. I put the spools and the Eva in a Ziploc Big Bag (Large) which I estimate at about .2 cubic foot volume. 10 hours in the sack with Eva and your filament comes out with a whole new attitude. :-)
I have a Trinity Labs Trinity One coming sometime this week and I've ordered up Birch plywood sheets and a sheet of G-10 to use with it.
In the meantime the PrintrBot Jr keeps knocking out printed parts for a Prusa i3 mini.
scotty, we absolutely should have a customer loyalty program!
Use my "contact us" page to give me your address. You're obviously a serious printer and helping by posting your experience is supportive to everyone.
OK, I've been printing on Garolite LE quite happily for a few days now (thanks to you guys posting here), with these parameters:

- Using the 1/32" sheet, clipped to a Replicator print bed with binder clips
- Extruder 220 degrees, print bed 50 degrees (might as well be unheated)
- Sanded the surface to make it a bit less 'slick' (unsanded, large prints were peeling off)
- Printing at 40 mm/s (and Sailfish accelleration)

Other observations:
- Printing with sides/top panels on seems to print a bit more consistently (less warping).
- Printing with thehttp://www.thingiverse.com/... directing the fan venting onto the Nylon prints a bit less reliably. But printing the ducted fans clip-on in nylon worked wonderfully.
- Not only leveling but calibrating the height of the print bed is very important. If it's too low, the first layer is squished into a thin surface, and the second layer doesn't adhere to it well, so the first layer forms a 'skin' that peels off. I' noticed that with every surface I've tried so far (wood, Nylon, Garolite LE). On the Garolite, I've been printing the first layer and tweaking the platform's height until the first layer is evenly white-ish - if it's clear, the first layer is too 'squished' and the prints tend to split at the second layer.
- I'm noticing a fair amount of 'popping' with steam, but the print quality is great so I'm ignoring the popping. The filament hasn't been in particularly humid surroundings (I'm in Florida, which is humid, but with A/C there's low humidity in the house where the printer is).

The only challenge I'm having now that I'm using this wonderful material is that the very thin sheet gets pulled up by the nylon as it cools, so while the nylon sticks to the sheet, the sheet is pulled up from the print bed, allowing the parts to curve up a bit.

I've ordered a 1/4 inch sheet of Garolite LE, so hopefully that last issue will be solved in a few days.
Thank you, Laird for your excellent observations on the garolite (LE). I see similar action on the 2BEIGH3 here, however the 2BEIGH3 does not have any enclosure or heated bed. Also, as you mention it's a good idea to rub down the garolite as we found a few of the sheets we received had a cheap oil or graphite sprayed on the sheets. We assumed it was to keep the sheets from sticking together in hot storage. We used a brillo pad and dish detergent to clean ours. Takes a bit of the shine off, but makes for a great print bed. The occasional pop and steam are inherent in any nylon type material as it's hygroscopic. We have found that you can dry it, but you really never get all of the water out, so there will always be an occasional pop. Thanks again for your observations on the garoilte as we're getting a lot of comments as to how well it works via emails.
Just finished printing a case dims: 100mm x 160mm x 25mm high with 2mm thick walls on a Replicator 2 using a 1mm sheet of Tufnol Whale as the bed attached with Bulldog clips. Brilliant! perfectly flat. I forgot to turn off the PLA cooling fan and it actually helped! This is a fantastic build platform and it cost me $5 for 2 (one sheet cut in half).
Thank you, MakeALot, there is nothing like peer review to help others benefit from new information. I am sending out some samples to our distributors as the material may, as you've pointed out, go by another trade name. As you have found, this material is very inexpensive and costs less than Kapton, Blue tape and other items. In addition, not needing a heated bed makes this ideal for older style printers.
Could you list what other surfaces were investigated in addition to the Garolite products?
I'll have comments on the these at the web site soon, but here is the list

1. Brushed and Anodized Aluminum
2. Cast Acrylic
3. Etched Glass
4. Various Low Tack Glues, Adhesives and Epoxies
5. Etched Polycarbonate
6. Smooth and Etched PET
7. Cast ABS (Cast means that you need to obtain a pc 1/2" or more as thinner is rolled and won't be flat.)
8. Smooth and Etched PVC
9. Other Composites = FR4 and G10 glass laminates
10. MEK Burnished Acrylic
11. Wax backed Tapes i.e. Blue, Standard Masking, and every painters tape available.
12. Poplar Wood
13. RedWood - Sanded

14. Balsa wood
15. Pine - Sanded
16. Fiber Glass resins - two types
17. 2 Part Plastic Resin
18. 2 part epoxy ABS Resin
19. Casting Resins - Urethane and Acrylic
20. 3M scotch Weld DP270
I printed 645 on glass with 65% Polyester / 35% cotton fabric glued to it with 3M High Strength spray glue. You have to have the first layer be deep into the cloth. It would be great if you could test this and see how it compares to Garrolite LE.
I've had good success with a sanded and scored nylon sheet platform: flickr.com/photos/tbuser/8386869415/in/photostream/
Ordered both the nylon sheet and the Garolite LT. McMaster-Carr should pay you guys commission! :-)
laird - in reply to laird
OK, tried the Nylon sheet, and it's working great! I have printed both on the 'slick' sheet and 'scored' and for small parts the slick sheet worked fine, but the scoring really helps with larger parts.

Thanks for posting about it!
Tony, Great prints, Sir! We have been asked about the threads mostly on MB's and UP's as they both use direct drive Ext without roller bearings for the idler. Most found that an increase in retraction distance solved the issue.
Good luck in your future prints!
Thanks, I've made some progress to reduce ooze by lowering the temp to about 220 and lowering retraction speed to around 10mm/s and a distance of about 2 and turning on comb. Otherwise if it retracts too fast, too often, on my rep1, it tends to dig in lose grip and stop extruding.
Awesome. Thanks for that! :)
No problem, sgraber. We encourage all questions as we see 618 as the communities new Technical Advancement. 618 was created with the help and then acceptance of the 3D Printing community and we have also just started to document the complete development at reprap.org/wiki/User:Taulman
There are already plans for 2 new polymers for mid/late next year. A medical certified 618 (680) and a High Speed printing 645.
FYI I've had some initial success with a polyvinylpyrolidone/vinylacetate copolymer dissolved in reagent alcohol painted on frosted glass, with a build platform of 90°C printing at 35mm/sec @ 245°C extruder temperature. At temperatures greater than 90°C the part will slowly start delaminating with greater temperatures causing quicker delamination.

The product is PVP-VA S-630 available from ISP Corp: online1.ispcorp.com/en-US/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?BU=Personal%20Care&;l1=Trade%20Name&l2=PVP/VA&prodName=PVP/VA%20S-630&prdId=72154
If it's any help, Garolite is called Tufnol in the UK and is available in 3 grades that I can find, Sheets of various thicknesses are available from here: directplasticsonline.co.uk/Tufnol_Sheet.html

It may be worth getting a thin sheet 1 or 2 mm and fixing it to your build platform with bulldog clips, that way, you will be able to flex it to remove stubborn parts.

Also, it is notoriously hard to cut to size, so the thinner the better...
Can you check to determine if these are "Linen/Cloth/Paper Based" as we found that other laminates did not contain any cellulose materials and therefore did not perform as well.
Thanks
As to a heated surface. Both the University at the The Hague, Netherlands (Human Kinetic Technology) and two Medical clinics were concerned about thermal distortions of the print bed with a heated silicon mat. As glass is not an option for 618, it meant we had to find a material that meets requirements for flatness at room temperatures.

As to thickness, this really depends on what you plan to print. There are significant forces with both ABS and Nylon. It really comes down to the amount of square area of the first layers. We will work to provide a "Guideline" on the taulman3D site to help, with examples. The Universities use 1/2". The Clinics, 1" and we use both a 1/8" and 1/4". The material is very low cost compared to purchasing tapes and other items for every print. One might try the 6" x 6" x 1/8" or 1/4" to start.
Very exciting. I'm about to try some fairly large Nylon prints, and this material could be ideal.

Did you use a heated print bed?

Do you have a sense of how to balance this material's sticking "too much" with the other material not sticking enough? I notice that you taped the middle of the print, and left the end to contact the Bakelite (Garelite LE). Is that a general strategy that you would recommend? How about covering the Bakelite with tape strips, exposing small strips of Bakelite to hold down the print? Have you printed any "real" parts on this platform yet, or just the test triangular bar?

Can you tell us any more?
One thing of note is that the thermal density has an affect, i.e. If you print a half sphere, then the center is almost impossible to remove without damage.

Also, with so much happening, so quickly with 618, it's still important to acknowledge those that have contributed. Some in proprietary organizations along with others in open source organizations. This development was researched and provided to us by Dan Clark. An Engr that has directly supported taulman3D and designed and built very large scale industrial 3D RepRap style printers. Dan has been involved in testing 618 since it's first test release and provided technical assistance whenever asked. Dan's 3D Printer is a unit that can not only 3D Print a full size chair, but also print the thumbtack on it's seat in the same GCode!
We've tried to keep contact at the worst case points, i.e. any sharp corners as they cool the fastest.
Makes sense. What tape did you use? I've tried Painter's tape and Masking tape, with no adhesion at all. But I've not tried too many combinations of tape and temperature yet...
It would be interesting to know if other phenolic laminates such as Bakelite might work as well!

Did you try either the Garolite X or XXX (paper-based instead of linen-based)?
Yes, we have plates of the non-linen garolite. They have a "coating or surface layer that peels off. 618 does not stick well to the resin alone. I believe there are some bakalites that are similar in makeup.

As you can see in the photos, our 1/4" plate has a lot of deep scratches and we found that these are no issue at all.
Would you recommend scoring the edge of a Garolite LE plating, if we find the adhesion too intense, then?
Rather than scoring, you might try the Kapton tapes as they are thin and have a smooth surface.
Thanks for sharing.
do you have a recommendation regarding thickness, and HBP temperature?
This is very exciting! I'll look forward to trying this.

Is it necessary to heat the build platform
Top